Tour Name vs Tour and LEG in Tour name
Posted 14 Apr 2022, 2:41:47
In the last few days, a user (@seelentau) seemingly editing with good intentions, has tried to “clean up” the band Ghost’s setlists. An Artist who has plenty of users maintaining their setlists, particularly over the last several years. As with most Artists there are plenty of gaps/missing sets from the early years.
@sellentau changed all the Tour Names to Tour Name + LEG., thus creating multiple new Tours. While there have been requests for several years on this site to add Tour Legs as a sub-category of Tours, that programming is not currently available.
Just one example, the Tour name is Black to the Future. Like most Artists, they name the legs on some t-shirts, and art for ticket sales/advertising, but the proper tour name is Black to the Future.
ARTIST OFFICIAL:
We wish to inform you that tickets for the second chapter of the “BLACK TO THE FUTURE TOUR“ go onsale tomorrow at 10AM” local time.
https://www.facebook.com/114358401916298/photos/pb.100044408260261.-2207520000../1107208422631286/?type=3
ARTIST OFFICIAL: We wish to inform you that Ghost will be embarking on the second chapter of the Black To The Future Tour in Spring 2016
https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=1105459276139534&set=pb.100044408260261.-2207520000..
Press: Swedish metal band Ghost have announced that they'll be extending their Black To The Future tour dates into North America for 2016.
https://zumic.com/ghost-extends-black-to-the-future-tour-dates-for-2016
Ghost Black To The Future Tour The National 5/9/2016
http://sidestagemagazine.com/ghost-black-future-tour-national-592016/
Band Art Black to the Future
https://s3.amazonaws.com/sndb/uploads/photo/image/22549/large_Ghost_15.jpg
T-shirt has the Tour and LEG name on it:
https://tshirtslayer.com/files-tshirt/styles/shirtview/public/user-20031/tss—a2ee8acdf45fee2a202fc1330db31ca9_0.jpg.webp
User has changed Tour: Black to the Future to Black to the Future North America 2016
https://www.setlist.fm/search?query=artist:%28Ghost%29+tour:%28Black+to+the+Future+North+America+2016%29
The above is just one example, they split several Ghost Tours out into the Tour LEGS, and additionally added location and year to standalone Tour names.
If we’re going to use the Tour + LEG instead of just the Tour NAME for modern international bands, it’ll probably take a couple of weeks to spilt up the Metallica Tours.
The Metallica Tour LEG t-shirts:
Ride The Lighting U.S. Tour 1985
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/529665606169597923/
And Justice For All Europe 1988
https://www.etsy.com/au/listing/741896041/vintage-1988-metallica-tour-t-shirt-and?show_sold_out_detail=1&ref=nla_listing_details
Poor Touring Me North America ’96-’97
https://xetsy.com/shop/metallica-vintage-t-shirt-1990s-load-concert-tour-dates-poor-touring-me-1996-97/
The Guidelines mention the below. Neither Ghost or Metallica is an “older band” nor do they only tour their home country.
“Geographic area and year. Frequently used for older bands who go years between new albums. E.g. European Tour 1997.
Season and year. Used for bands who mainly tour only their home country. E.g. Spring Tour 1997.”
I'm inviting all the users, roadies, mods (as well as @seelentau) who have commented on this change on the setlists to be met with “it’s on the t-shirt/art”, to chime in here and discuss. Most of the Ghost editors would like to see the Tour Names restored, removing the Leg name.
Last edited 14 Apr 2022, 3:21:48
Posted 14 Apr 2022, 3:20:54
Personally, I lean more on the side of simplicity. If it’s an album tour, naming of the album makes sense. Or a European tour for a primarily US/North American touring band (or vice versa) and the tours are distinct and marketed that way.… Meaning it’s not marketed as a “world tour.”
I think the use of legs is a relevant identifier if there’s a “large gap” in between… For example for the last TOOL tour, there was a two year gap, and the setlists for the same album tour were completely different from leg 1 to leg 2.
The problem is with that enters a lot of judgment calls, and with a multiuser wiki like this, judgment calls usually add confusion & a lot of inconsistency. So, that still leads me back to simplicity being the overarching principle, but it almost has to be case my case. What might make sense for some artists won’t make sense for others.
Thanks for the discussion. I don’t know that there’s a good non-case by case solution, unless the mod/admin want to make it more concrete in the guidelines.
PS – Metallica not being an older band made me think… uh, they probably are now. lol
Last edited 14 Apr 2022, 3:23:17
Posted 14 Apr 2022, 3:21:34
I did the same for other bands over the years, in accordance with official sources. Best example would be Dir en grey:
OVERSEAS (EU) TOUR09 FEAST OF V SENSES https://www.setlist.fm/stats/dir-en-grey-43d6c33b.html?tour=bd12516
vs
TOUR09 FEAST OF V SENSES https://www.setlist.fm/stats/dir-en-grey-43d6c33b.html?tour=73d1aa85
according to the official homepage: http://direngrey.co.jp/bio/139/
Nobody has ever come to me and complained that I use incorrect names. The Ghost tour names are all complete and correct, official names found on licensed merchandise. None of them are made-up, as opposed to before, when some tours were simply named after the corresponding album.
The Guidelines mention the below. Neither Ghost or Metallica is an “older band” nor do they only tour their home country.
As I told you already, this guideline speaks about tours that are ONLY called “Spring Tour 1997″ or something similar. That's not the case here.
Most of the Ghost editors would like to see the Tour Names restored, removing the Leg name.
I haven't seen a single other person complain except for you. There's also no rule that says we should use incomplete tour names, or that tour names from shirts are forbidden to use or something alike.
And since setlist.fm is, among other things, used to see what the average setlist for a tour looks like, it only makes sense to name these tours as accurately as possible.
But I do agree that an extra option for tour legs would make things quite a lot easier. I'd of course update the Ghost tours myself, should such an option be implemented as the result of this thread. :)
But in general, I find it weird that people argue for less accuracy and detail on a website with a focus on accuracy and details…
Last edited 14 Apr 2022, 3:28:36
Posted 14 Apr 2022, 6:47:47
But in general, I find it weird that people argue for less accuracy and detail on a website with a focus on accuracy and details…
It's of course not about less accuracy, it's about what Dan said:
The problem is with that enters a lot of judgment calls, and with a multiuser wiki like this, judgment calls usually add confusion & a lot of inconsistency. So, that still leads me back to simplicity being the overarching principle, but it almost has to be case my case. What might make sense for some artists won’t make sense for others.
And just to be clear, I'm sure that all edits can be justified by sources and make sense. It's not my intention (and I'm sure also not kfinch's intention) to play a blame game directed at seelentau. Far from it, you're all pretty good in editing setlists :). The question is whether it's the right call for a particular case and that's sometimes quite tricky. E.g. I know that there are a lot of people taking care of Metallica setlists, so just going ahead to edit all tours (that seem to have been agreed on being ok) would cause quite some discussions and arguments that aren't really necessary as the underlying problem is of course that there are currently no “tour legs”.
Posted 14 Apr 2022, 13:38:40
Well then the question is where the simplicity reaches its bottom line: Should we just name the tours after the album they're supporting? Should we ignore official tour names? What if a tour isn't in support of an album?
It's been a couple of days, but from what I remember, I initially only edited tours that had “album only” names. So things like the “Prequelle” tour. And then I kinda went overboard, I guess^^
I'm sorry that I haven't asked for opinions before going on my edit spree, but as I said, I've never had any issues like that in the past. I've always edited under the belief that the most complete tour name should be used. Without making anything up, of course.
So my question would be: How feasible is a “tour leg” option? You've done great work recently with the advanced search option, so I hope adding a “tour leg” option would be possible to implement without much problem.
And maybe the guidelines could use a little rewording^^
Posted 14 Apr 2022, 14:29:04
Personally, I think that we should be using the official tour names or the album they are promoting. Legs should not be separated unless the tour name has changed. Much like in 1993 when Metallica started calling the Wherever We May Roam tour the Nowhere Else to Roam tour. Also, the “promo tour” needs to go. Usually, those are just television & radio appearances that are spread out over a few months. Technically, not a tour.
Posted 15 Apr 2022, 5:45:34
Legs should not be separated unless the tour name has changed. Much like in 1993 when Metallica started calling the Wherever We May Roam tour the Nowhere Else to Roam tour.
I'm curious, how did the tour name change for Metallica in your example?
Posted 15 Apr 2022, 5:48:40
They toured for almost two years straight. In early 1993, they played smaller US cities & changed the tour name to Nowhere Else to Roam.
Last edited 15 Apr 2022, 5:49:10
Posted 15 Apr 2022, 6:01:39
That's clever :). IMHO the way tours are listed on the Metallica page is a good example of how it should be. Legs could definitely enhance the experience there, especially for big tours like Damage Inc, World Magnetic, Worldwired etc. But then again, it could be different for other artists.
Posted 15 Apr 2022, 14:31:01
I have been editing both Ghost and Metallica setlists for a while now, and I can't say that finding all these new tours on Ghost's page wasn't a bit disorienting for me.
The amount of editing @seelentau has done is surely remarkable for both quantity and quality, but as @earfdae already said, IN THIS CASE more simplicity is probably the best.
Having a sub-category for tour legs would surely help, but in the grand scheme of things I prefer to consider the entirety of a touring cycle for all things stats.
Posted 15 Apr 2022, 15:21:38
something weird is going on with the servers, I think… my reply gets deleted again and again ><
This is what I wrote:
Well, before I correct my edits, I'd at least like to have the guidelines be more clear on tours. I feel like currently, they're lacking in the following:
When are tour legs allowed to be added?
Where does a tour name end and where does a tour leg begin?
Are all mentions of geographical locations and/or years tour legs? Wouldn't a tour that is named like example 3's “Spring Tour 1997″ be invalid, then?
And what about shows that don't belong to any tour? In the case of Ghost, that would be the two promo dates and the Opus Eponymous tour. Those tour names are entirely made-up, even though a tour name isn't obligatory.
So far, it seems to me like the argument is “inventing tour names is okay because we want to be accurate and it's good for the stats etc. – per https://www.setlist.fm/setlist/ghost/2022/mountain-view-mausoleum-altadena-ca-389e5ab.html – but using the full tour name w/ the leg is not okay because we don't want to be too accurate and it's bad for the stats etc.”
I'm aware that the guidelines are just that, guidelines, they're not set in stone and you trust us editors to handle it appropriately, but a little more details would probably be good to have.
At least until tour legs can be added separately, I guess.
Last edited 15 Apr 2022, 15:22:03
Posted 19 Apr 2022, 7:01:28
something weird is going on with the servers, I think… my reply gets deleted again and again ><
Sorry for that, it's possible that your entries have been falsely marked as spam. They were there, but you wouldn't be able to see them then.
I'm aware that the guidelines are just that, guidelines, they're not set in stone and you trust us editors to handle it appropriately, but a little more details would probably be good to have.
This is especially true for tours. I think without having a proper “legs” feature it will be quite tough to find a “one size fits all” solution for tours, as the way they get dealt with seem to heavily depend on the artist.
Posted 19 Apr 2022, 14:32:09
Hi all!
Dark Tranquillity is currently on tour in Europe. Users gave for the tour the not phantasyful name “Double Headlining Tour”. Yes, it's true, that Ensiferum is co-headlining with them, but DT has an own tour name “European Moments” – it's the debut tour of their recent album “Moment” (still issued in 2020, but you know…). This name is also shown on the T-shirts sold in the merch, and in coherence with the February leg “North American Moments”.
There is no chance to change the tour name – or at least, I couldn't find out how to do – so please change it.
(P.S.: Ensiferum didn't chose any tour name, particularly not “Double Headlining”…)
Posted 20 Apr 2022, 6:48:28
There is no chance to change the tour name
There is and “Edit Tour” link right where all the other edit links are. The steps are also explained in the tutorial
Last edited 20 Apr 2022, 6:48:43
